Research Group for ME/CFS, Chronic Disease, Aging and Cancer

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Calculating mineral dosages?
« on: August 03, 2022, 05:07:13 AM »
Hi All

I saw someone mention this protocol on Twitter and am very curious, particularly about the hair minerals since this ties in with Ron Davis' latest. I've ordered myself a hair test, but wondering if there is a particular formula we are supposed to be using for calculating the dose of the depleted minerals, based on those results? (as per 'Step 3', here)

I also note that there is a caution on manganese tolerance with Lyme, could anyone elaborate on this?
I have been chronically low to deficient in Mn over the years despite multiple rounds of 10mg/day and I never felt better for supplementing it. I've had positive Lyme IgM ELISAs in the past but it's my understanding that this can cross-react with Rheumatoid Factor. Both the follow up Blot testing done by my GP and Armin EliSpot and SeraSpot were negative. The only abnormality was a low CD57+ NK cells, but I can't find much in the literature to validate the significance of this. I'm fully expecting Mn to show low in this hair test but fairly confident I don't have Lyme ???
Thanks


Re: Calculating mineral dosages?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2022, 07:45:36 PM »
Hi All

I saw someone mention this protocol on Twitter and am very curious, particularly about the hair minerals since this ties in with Ron Davis' latest. I've ordered myself a hair test, but wondering if there is a particular formula we are supposed to be using for calculating the dose of the depleted minerals, based on those results? (as per 'Step 3', here)

I also note that there is a caution on manganese tolerance with Lyme, could anyone elaborate on this?
I have been chronically low to deficient in Mn over the years despite multiple rounds of 10mg/day and I never felt better for supplementing it. I've had positive Lyme IgM ELISAs in the past but it's my understanding that this can cross-react with Rheumatoid Factor. Both the follow up Blot testing done by my GP and Armin EliSpot and SeraSpot were negative. The only abnormality was a low CD57+ NK cells, but I can't find much in the literature to validate the significance of this. I'm fully expecting Mn to show low in this hair test but fairly confident I don't have Lyme ???
Thanks
Hi there,

What we've observed is that restoring manganese and certain other element levels back into 'normal' range can be quite challenging - this is especially true if iron is also low, as this indicates anaemia of inflammation and extra difficulties with remineralisation, while the inflammatory state is present. Aspects of the protocol target an array of influences towards that inflammatory state. You'll notice 20-40mg of manganese has been suggested in the protocol - even at these levels, it can take months to resolve a deficiency. Regular HTMAs are needed to monitor progress and prevent going into toxicity. The HTMA shows an 'average' of the elements across the time the hair follicle grew. eg. If taking supplements to increase levels, assuming a linear trajectory, a sample taken at 6 weeks would show the progress at approximately 3 weeks.

Given the different roles of these elements in energy and other metabolism, a balance between the 'aggressiveness' of remediating iron and elements involved with oxidative stress management. The bias needs to favour the latter. The means manganese, copper, zinc and selenium (where any are indicated deficient) need to be prioritised ahead of the iron.

Additionally, if there's an active bacterial or other infection, that should ideally be resolved before starting iron, as iron will benefit those pathogenic cells, plus your own metabolism.

Lyme spirochetes make use of manganese to defend against one of the body's defense mechanisms - superoxides. This means again that the process of supporting your own cells gives aid to the foreign cells. Ideally, the protocol would be combined with targeted anti-virals, anti-bacterials or anti-fungals, depending on the pathogenic landscape. Some of the protocol aims to inhibits specific classes of pathogens, at their energy sources, in ways that don't impair your own energy metabolism.

Hope that helps! Feel free to post your HTMA here or on the Discord for further discussion.

Regards,

Joshua
NB. I am NOT a doctor and all information provided is for educational purposes only.

Please consult your physician before attempting anything you read here.


Re: Calculating mineral dosages?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2022, 06:08:01 AM »
Hi Joshua

Thank you for your reply and apologies for the delay in replying. I've finally got around to doing the hair mineral testing and have included my results in hope of discussion as I have no idea what I'm doing (other than hopefully repleting my Mn which is low, as expected given the past blood results).

My blood iron and ferritin levels are good (veering towards high end, probably due to my high ascorbic acid intake) so no issues with anaemia, my CRP and ESR are very low.

I believe my issues are related to oxidative stress and high urine malondialdehyde levels supports this.

What you say about superoxides in combo with my chronic Mn deficiency piques my fear of Lyme again, but I don't feel I fit the (progressive, neurological) picture of Lyme at all, plus all the Blots and Spots were negative. EBV was my trigger but I don't ever show any serological signs of reactivation. I've spent a fortune on testing down to the most unlikely and obscure! I do show past HHV6 infection which I think could explain my temporal lobe simple partial seizures. Are there any other causes of a  persistently low Mn besides Lyme?

My main issue is PEM which is characterised by immune activation/flu-like symptoms and what feels like neurotoxicity. So I just 'exist', trying to stay below the PEM threshold where possible.

Thank you for showing an interest in us 'forgotten ones', it is deeply appreciated :'(



Re: Calculating mineral dosages?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2022, 02:10:53 AM »


Hi again,

There are some interesting markers in the report. As you've probably seen online, there are many different opinions on how to interpret HTMA reports and how to remediate them. 

My experiences have shown a pattern where electrolyte pairs are normally 'bound' and have relationships to other elements, except where additional modifiers are in play. These can sometimes be eg. calcium channel blocking drugs.

Your calcium is not bound to magnesium, suggesting a further calcium channel disturbance is in play. This needs to be quantified.

Sodium and potassium are exchanging pairs. Potassium deficiencies are associated with rubidium deficiencies. 
Calcium and magnesium are exchanging pairs. Calcium deficiencies are associated with strontium deficiencies. Magnesium deficiencies are associated with lithium deficiencies.

These all need to be remediated at the same time, although ideally not dosed at the same time of day due to competition for transporters. 

I'm curious why the iron levels are good, while other metals which use the same transporter are low. Likewise, the high levels of chromium. This could be indicative of another heavy metal accumulation which isn't tested by this particular report. There is a heavy metals specific HTMA from Doctors Data that might be useful in excluding this angle.

What does a week of eating and supplements look like for you, typically?

If this was my HTMA -

For the electrolytes, I'd follow the protocol intakes for calcium, magnesium, sodium and potassium, while adding 2mg/day of lithium and 500mg of strontium. I'd take the sodium and potassium with meals and sip on the calcium and magnesium separately, in between meals in my water bottle.

I'd also take 10 mg of manganese, 1 mg of vanadium, 150 mcg of germanium, 5 mg copper, 300 mcg iodine, 150 mcg molybdenum and a serving of the cobalt listed in the protocol. 

There's a supplement we've been testing which appears to increase absorption of certain metals. 
https://iherb.com/pr/morningstar-minerals-inner-vitality-fulvic-humic-minerals-32-oz-946-ml/61587
It's looking like it'll be a useful addition to the next protocol update. I'd happily include that.

For the elevated chromium and presumed untested heavy metal, 5g/day of Pectasol could also be worth exploring for 2-3 weeks.
https://iherb.com/pr/econugenics-pectasol-c-modified-citrus-pectin-5-29-oz-150-g/55234
I've seen some very impressive results in follow-up HTMAs.

Come join the chat on Discord, if you haven't already?