Research Group for ME/CFS, Chronic Disease, Aging and Cancer

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Re: B vitamin support - B6 Paradox?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2021, 11:00:45 AM »
In theory, mishandled / deficient amounts of cofactors is a viable explanation for intracellular B6 vitamer dysfunction.

However, I really have a lot of trouble with the low Riboflavin claim. Perhaps there is an issue in maintaining both the di and mono forms of Riboflavin (FAD / FMN), but I myself have been B6 toxic on multi-vitamins that have sufficient amounts of Riboflavin. (and, regularly pulsed enough Riboflavin to cause strong yellow urine). 

Maybe one of the versions of FAD/FMN is getting out of whack, or perhaps the behavior of PNPO / PL Kinase , etc. is further modified by metabolites that would be sourced from the Glutamine shunt? (e.g. "PNPO inhibitors", etc.)

Regardless, many fingers still point to the fasting mechanism for tamping down HHV infected cells as a better path then trying to do it while fed for anyone that has issues with B6 metabolism in the past. 

Adding Riboflavin during the fast may have pros/cons to putting pressure on cells we want to die or start listening to apoptosis. Plus, the fact that it's not easy to find a relatively clean supplement of Riboflavin (most have rice flour and other crap in them) is a concern.


Re: B vitamin support - B6 Paradox?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2021, 09:49:29 PM »
I guess this means - see what Josh comes up with, experiment, test and see how it goes. 

Meanwhile, a friendly person at a university Lab would help things along - wouldn't it ? :) 
hEDS, neuropathy symptoms


Re: B vitamin support - B6 Paradox?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2021, 11:24:07 PM »
In theory, mishandled / deficient amounts of cofactors is a viable explanation for intracellular B6 vitamer dysfunction.

However, I really have a lot of trouble with the low Riboflavin claim. Perhaps there is an issue in maintaining both the di and mono forms of Riboflavin (FAD / FMN), but I myself have been B6 toxic on multi-vitamins that have sufficient amounts of Riboflavin. (and, regularly pulsed enough Riboflavin to cause strong yellow urine).

Maybe one of the versions of FAD/FMN is getting out of whack, or perhaps the behavior of PNPO / PL Kinase , etc. is further modified by metabolites that would be sourced from the Glutamine shunt? (e.g. "PNPO inhibitors", etc.)

Regardless, many fingers still point to the fasting mechanism for tamping down HHV infected cells as a better path then trying to do it while fed for anyone that has issues with B6 metabolism in the past.

Adding Riboflavin during the fast may have pros/cons to putting pressure on cells we want to die or start listening to apoptosis. Plus, the fact that it's not easy to find a relatively clean supplement of Riboflavin (most have rice flour and other crap in them) is a concern.
I'd probably run the fast "clean" (apart from maybe a sprinkle of forskolin, caffeine if the HR spikes up when glycogen runs out) and during post-fast replenishment, look to also focus on drip-feeding riboflavin all-day, over a few days to a week, to help with digestion / absorption bottlenecks. 
NB. I am NOT a doctor and all information provided is for educational purposes only.

Please consult your physician before attempting anything you read here.


Re: B vitamin support - B6 Paradox?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2021, 07:59:56 AM »
I guess this means - see what Josh comes up with, experiment, test and see how it goes.

Meanwhile, a friendly person at a university Lab would help things along - wouldn't it ? :)

I would love to find a friendly researcher / student at a university lab to examine this. It would be ground breaking and serve as a foundation for other ideas.

We could even investigate Josh's theories on maintaining B6 management co-factor status and it's effect on intracellular B6 vitamer levels.

Have any ideas on such a friendly university? :)

I've been thinking of writing up a brief so that I could use it for supporting a PhD thesis, or perhaps even a grant that supports one of the many drives:

https://www.foundationforpn.org/congressionally-directed-medical-research-programs-cdmrp/?fbclid=IwAR3T9OjVhZQ32Yi7bc_7pxSQBqRhsp-b56Rg9hdzOdWlVIg8sg0e-reJ0Aw

However, I think European country/governments are more apt to perform this work than where I live. Simply because of the attitude / awareness surrounding B6.

The Maastricht University, Maastricht, the Netherlands seems to be one of these that has the desire and the lab access to perform this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221343442030013X?via%3Dihub#!


Re: B vitamin support - B6 Paradox?
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2021, 10:22:03 PM »
In theory, mishandled / deficient amounts of cofactors is a viable explanation for intracellular B6 vitamer dysfunction.

However, I really have a lot of trouble with the low Riboflavin claim. Perhaps there is an issue in maintaining both the di and mono forms of Riboflavin (FAD / FMN), but I myself have been B6 toxic on multi-vitamins that have sufficient amounts of Riboflavin. (and, regularly pulsed enough Riboflavin to cause strong yellow urine).

Maybe one of the versions of FAD/FMN is getting out of whack, or perhaps the behavior of PNPO / PL Kinase , etc. is further modified by metabolites that would be sourced from the Glutamine shunt? (e.g. "PNPO inhibitors", etc.)

Regardless, many fingers still point to the fasting mechanism for tamping down HHV infected cells as a better path then trying to do it while fed for anyone that has issues with B6 metabolism in the past.

Adding Riboflavin during the fast may have pros/cons to putting pressure on cells we want to die or start listening to apoptosis. Plus, the fact that it's not easy to find a relatively clean supplement of Riboflavin (most have rice flour and other crap in them) is a concern.
I'd probably run the fast "clean" (apart from maybe a sprinkle of forskolin, caffeine if the HR spikes up when glycogen runs out) and during post-fast replenishment, look to also focus on drip-feeding riboflavin all-day, over a few days to a week, to help with digestion / absorption bottlenecks.

Josh - for now, until a workaround/fix is discovered: 

For those who have/suspect they have B6toxicity/sensitivity - would you recommend they run the protocol without the multivitamin in the current version (that has the 100mg p5p/5mg Pyridoxine), and basically supplement with the main staples from it individually (Vit. C, E etc. supplement and so on, but no b6 supplementation)? 

I thought I gathered that from conversations regarding what people should do in this case... please correct me if I'm wrong.

 


Re: B vitamin support - B6 Paradox?
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2021, 10:26:41 PM »
I guess this means - see what Josh comes up with, experiment, test and see how it goes.

Meanwhile, a friendly person at a university Lab would help things along - wouldn't it ? :)

I would love to find a friendly researcher / student at a university lab to examine this. It would be ground breaking and serve as a foundation for other ideas.

We could even investigate Josh's theories on maintaining B6 management co-factor status and it's effect on intracellular B6 vitamer levels.

Have any ideas on such a friendly university? :)

I've been thinking of writing up a brief so that I could use it for supporting a PhD thesis, or perhaps even a grant that supports one of the many drives:

https://www.foundationforpn.org/congressionally-directed-medical-research-programs-cdmrp/?fbclid=IwAR3T9OjVhZQ32Yi7bc_7pxSQBqRhsp-b56Rg9hdzOdWlVIg8sg0e-reJ0Aw

However, I think European country/governments are more apt to perform this work than where I live. Simply because of the attitude / awareness surrounding B6.

The Maastricht University, Maastricht, the Netherlands seems to be one of these that has the desire and the lab access to perform this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221343442030013X?via%3Dihub#!

I think a lot of students/young professors wouldn't mind a good thesis topic or something to study that's new, and if you proposed them something, especially given your intellect and knowledge of the topic, might be happy to oblige you, as it might make their academic life/career easier, more interesting. And then you just use the resources that open up to you - not sure if they person even has to be very competent, as long as they are cooperative.... (or am I wrong?)

Europe definitely has perhaps more potential, at the moment, however I feel like you don't lose out on anything if you start asking around at your local institutions of higher learning - if anything it's good practice! 

Also, you do also have, and almost personally know a gang of people from the B6T groups who are ready to sign petitions, donate money, write letters, serve as cohort in experiments etc. 


Re: B vitamin support - B6 Paradox?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2021, 08:34:16 AM »
....
I'd probably run the fast "clean" (apart from maybe a sprinkle of forskolin, caffeine if the HR spikes up when glycogen runs out) and during post-fast replenishment, look to also focus on drip-feeding riboflavin all-day, over a few days to a week, to help with digestion / absorption bottlenecks.

I do not think the protocol utilizes an excessive or noticeable amount of B6.

I had a B6 sample I wanted to take. So, I did the following:

- L-Ornithine ~375mg / day - 5 days (to lower Nitrogen, if present...sadly I am still waiting on LOLA...resorted to L-Ornithine / L-Arginine)
- EGCG 326mg / day - 10 days (Reishi and Beta Glucans introduced in the last ~3 days) alongside L-Ornithine
Note: EGCG and Reishi from Life Extensions source and also supported with sufficient B1, B2, and Mg

My B6 plasma sample came back and was a bit higher than I expected given my food tracking. It's impossible to be 100%, and there is some variability in foodstuffs, but a partial block of GDH should have generated a lot more B6 dependent enzyme activity and weighed against.

I did have what I believe to be characteristic liver pain in my upper right chest that I get during EBV outbreaks (well, what I "think" are EBV outbreaks), and my liver enzymes and GGT were elevated on the panel (see below). GGT being the biggest signal, IMO.

So, there was most certainly a reaction.



Regardless, I do plan on moving thru the EGCG fast as soon as I get all the ingredients (re-looking for succinate). Regardless of the B6 aspect, it does seem like the best way to "clean house".